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...why am I actually sitting down and coming up with a plausible way that the Ori could possibly conquer Earth? Because I don't think they'd nuke us from orbit, because they get their power from worshipers. (At least, as I understand it. I might have to go back and rewatch s10.) From what I understand of the 'gate-verse, Earth apparently has a population orders of magnitude larger than most other planets. The Ori would have to be not only stupid, but failing at the basic survival techniques. I kind of find that a bit hard to believe.
DISCLAIMER: Yes, I am going to be talking about religions. This will be in a purely theoretical sense. There might be some analysis too. Please do not think I am hating on your beliefs or anything.
The main problem is that, simply looking at the major religions of the world, most people who believe in something believe in it without proof. That is fundamentally different than what it seems like the rest of the galaxy takes as its status quo. The Goa'uld masqueraded as gods. A real, physical presence. For the majority of people, there was no reason not to believe. The reason everything kind of fell apart was because the Tau'ri have a history of not requiring proof for faith. The gods of the Tau'ri are largely unseen, and people still have faith. (Yes, I know I'm painting in hugely broad strokes. I am purposely making a broad generalization here to prove a point.)
The Ori seem to have largely stepped into a power vacuum left by the Goa'uld. Everyone else wasn't used to not having a very physical manifestation of whatever they believed in. You can make arguments about the true meaning of faith and whether or not it requires proof here. (If I were a theologian, I might. I'm not. I'm an engineer. If anyone wants to tackle that, feel free.) It's kind of a fundamentally different scenario, though, than Earth.
So, how would they do it? Having nations and governments surrender would count as a win nominally. But Earth has had countless wars over religion, and probably will have many more. Faith seems to be rooted in something different, and harder to dissolve. Conversion, true conversion, is hard.
Destroying major religious centers like Jerusalem (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), Rome (Christianity, specifically Catholicism), and Mecca (Islam) would get people's attention, but would probably serve more to piss them off. (Oh hai thar, Crusades.) The friend I was discussing this with suggested book burnings: theological and holy texts right along side science texts. It's an interesting thought. Also, a dismantling of a lot of the communications around the world. Keeping people from easily communicating with each other would help towards insuring that the knowledge that's being destroyed stays that way.
It's an interesting thought exercise. And the more I look at it, the more I see how bloody hard it would be. (I suppose you could scale this down to see why resistance groups always seem to be so very hard to root out to any opposing force.)
DISCLAIMER: Yes, I am going to be talking about religions. This will be in a purely theoretical sense. There might be some analysis too. Please do not think I am hating on your beliefs or anything.
The main problem is that, simply looking at the major religions of the world, most people who believe in something believe in it without proof. That is fundamentally different than what it seems like the rest of the galaxy takes as its status quo. The Goa'uld masqueraded as gods. A real, physical presence. For the majority of people, there was no reason not to believe. The reason everything kind of fell apart was because the Tau'ri have a history of not requiring proof for faith. The gods of the Tau'ri are largely unseen, and people still have faith. (Yes, I know I'm painting in hugely broad strokes. I am purposely making a broad generalization here to prove a point.)
The Ori seem to have largely stepped into a power vacuum left by the Goa'uld. Everyone else wasn't used to not having a very physical manifestation of whatever they believed in. You can make arguments about the true meaning of faith and whether or not it requires proof here. (If I were a theologian, I might. I'm not. I'm an engineer. If anyone wants to tackle that, feel free.) It's kind of a fundamentally different scenario, though, than Earth.
So, how would they do it? Having nations and governments surrender would count as a win nominally. But Earth has had countless wars over religion, and probably will have many more. Faith seems to be rooted in something different, and harder to dissolve. Conversion, true conversion, is hard.
Destroying major religious centers like Jerusalem (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), Rome (Christianity, specifically Catholicism), and Mecca (Islam) would get people's attention, but would probably serve more to piss them off. (Oh hai thar, Crusades.) The friend I was discussing this with suggested book burnings: theological and holy texts right along side science texts. It's an interesting thought. Also, a dismantling of a lot of the communications around the world. Keeping people from easily communicating with each other would help towards insuring that the knowledge that's being destroyed stays that way.
It's an interesting thought exercise. And the more I look at it, the more I see how bloody hard it would be. (I suppose you could scale this down to see why resistance groups always seem to be so very hard to root out to any opposing force.)
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(no subject)
That's one of the reasons I always had to laugh at the movie Red Dawn. Because, really? The Russians would have enough men to invade EVERY single American city, town, village and farm? Not so much.
(no subject)
But yeah, successful indoctrination would take years and generations. That's a phenomenal amount of patience, as well as, like you said, an astounding level of force because they'd have to maintain a rebellious population all throughout that time.
(no subject)
the impatience of their Priors thus far, though, is likely because of
1) being outside the Ori reach.
2) being tasked with creating a foothold from which to spread Origin.
(no subject)
I'm thinking, yes, they'd need to severely disrupt communication. I think also decreasing the population would be in their favor - destroy holy centers and religious leaders, but do so not with soldiers, but with "magical" powers by the Priors or the Orici.
Disrupt communication. Disrupt electrical networks. Cripple the population and set them up so they have to focus mostly on surviving. Get politicians to declare the Ori to be gods. Be benevolent to the ones who prostrate (real or not). Make the only book be the book or origin.
Not saying it'll be easy, because of all the things you say. But if they're patient, it'll work.
(alternately, really, while Earth is one of the most populous planets, there are still WAY more people in the galaxy and if Earth is the biggest thorn stopping the Ori, maybe destroying all or Earth would be the greater good?)
(no subject)
Which brings me to the fact that most colleges would probably be first on the list, after holy centers and giant military bases, to go. Maybe some of them will survive, but they'd be the ones out in the middle of rural areas. Maybe.
(I think it'd depend on how much they think Earth is worth. Over 6*10^9 people is a lot of people...)
(no subject)
:D
(no subject)
(no subject)
as to intelligence...
this deserves its own subject line; sorry...
(no subject)
Soviet history is an interesting beast.
Honestly, I'm not sure how they would do it. I can see them trying to court the young disaffected college students who always Want to Change the World, and twisting that desire. Or I can see them stifling that. Funny how both can have similar outcomes.
(no subject)
But is it a lot of people in the grand scheme of the entire galaxy/universe?
And how much trouble is it worth? How many do you have to kill to get the rest? And do the Ori still gain power from people who only pretend to believe in/worship them?
Though I wonder if Earth has some degree of extra interest in their supposed goal of wiping out the Ancients - as the first planet the Ancients came to, maybe it has significance for that battle?
(no subject)
Although, as Earth is the first planet of the Ancients, probably before the split between the Ancients and the Ori, it could very well be a pyschological target. Possibly like how Jerusalem was during the Crusades. All of them.
excellent points, good sir.
(which raises the question: what about Oma Desala and Kheb? did Oma and the Ancients get power from all the Jaffa legends about Kheb? did they get power from the Athosian belief in the Ancestors?)
Destroying the major religious centers might be counter-productive, actually -- it would encourage the trend towards de-centralization (ie, Judaism with the Temple, Lutherans vs Rome, etc)
Whereas it might actually be in the Ori's (Oris'?) interests to strengthen the hands of the central powers...that way, for example, if the Pope declares that the Ori are a rank of saints or angels, vital for intercession with God, there's fewer opposition within that faith.
Conversion is hard, true...but when it happens, it produces people much more determined in their {newfound} faith.
>A real, physical presence. For the majority of people, there was no reason not to believe. The reason everything kind of fell apart was because the Tau'ri have a history of not requiring proof for faith.
True. Which is one reason why I always got irritated when Daniel (or others on SG1) managed to win theological arguments so quickly, converting whole planets to dump the Goa'uld. (and providing nothing to replace that theology...which was a dangerous move, to say the least)
Re: excellent points, good sir.
Strengthening the hands of the central powers is also an option. I suppose that depends on how compatible the Book of Origin is with, say, the Old Testament. (I believe, if I am remembering something I was taught in 7th grade correctly, there are threads that connect the Old Testament, the Torah, and the Koran together. But this was, uh, almost 10 years ago that I heard this.) If it's highly compatible, it could be highly creepy in how easy it could be to twist everything to do just as you said. If not, well, it becomes very hard. Christians, for example, still argue about what books are canon or not.
I don't know how Daniel (and SG-1) managed to win theological arguments like that. Shattering faith is not only hard, but the consequences are enormous. (Or should be.) It wasn't like converting people on Earth from one religion to another. Like I said, on Earth, if we have faith, we are taught to have it without proof. This is part of the reason why the concept of "atheist" even exists. In the galaxy out there in the 'gate-verse, the idea of being an "atheist" is completely insane, because the "gods" walk among you. Really, how are you supposed to win that argument? (Providing nothing to replace theology, which not only religion, but also some governments were based on, was not only dangerous, but probably extremely stupid and short-sighted. It's really no surprise that it came back to bite them in the ass.)
Re: excellent points, good sir.
I think part of what we're supposed to think is "oh look, the Goa'uld don't know everything (ie, Teal'c lied to Apophis while First Prime), so therefore they can't be gods."
*Daniel* of all people should know that, even on Earth, there have been exceedingly few religions where *any* god claimed to be all-knowing.
Re: excellent points, good sir.
You know, if we take the idea that the Goa'uld either took on the aspects of mythological figures, or that they were the mythological figures, the argument against omniscience holds even less water. Nearly every mythology mentioned in the show had gods who were flawed. Flawed to an astounding degree, and most certainly were not all-knowing. *Daniel* should know THAT.
Re: excellent points, good sir.
I always felt, especially later on, that there were already a lot of seeds of doubt long before the Tauri came in and took advantage of them.
The Jaffa have this intense spiritual belief surrounding around Kheb and Ascension (didn't Dakara play a role too?) that has nothing to do with the Goa'uld as gods.
It makes me think that maybe when Jaffa think of Goa'uld as god it doesn't quite mean god or religion in the normal sense. And maybe that's why it's so easy - it's really overthrowing technologically-advanced oppressors who have reinforced their superiority over generations rather than changing people's beliefs.
Sometimes. Depending on what mood the writers were in :)