No, I am not making this up

[ultranos]

Conversation at lunch today (paraphrased):

"So, if one Stargate was orbiting the planet in space, and the other was on a planet, and you opened a connection, how dead are we?"
"How so?"
"Using the Stargate to limit the flow, how fast will it take to reach equilibrium, between the atmosphere and vacuum? Ignoring bulkheads, doors, corridors, etc under a mountain."
"Well, it'll take time to move the atmosphere from around the planet, and the rate will slow down the thinner the atmosphere gets..."
"Don't forget that, barring being connected to a black hole or having a giant red laser aimed at the Stargate, it closes after 38 minutes."
"So, with boundary conditions of 'the plot', how much dead should we have been?"
"You know, this is actually an easy calculation. I'll get back to you on it."

Comments

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Hee :)
(and now I'm nostalgic for my college cafeteria)

Actually, I wonder if Stargate's don't have some form of shield preventing individual molecules from going through - since air alone isn't enough to keep a 'gate open if nothing larger goes through - and they don't worry about exchanging air with other planets (because, really, otherwise airborne bacteria or viruses or, heck, pollen could become a big problem). So maybe we're safe from that?

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

I thought you'd get a kick out of this conversation. :)

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Actually directly before this part of the conversation, one guy brought up how there really seems to be no difference in pressure between one planet with a gate to the next, unless the gate happens to be in orbit. Since we don't get bizarre flow problems due to pressure differentials. (I have a thermal-fluids engineering test this week; my brain is entirely full of the ideal gas model.)

I was guessing that the Stargate had to have some kind of protection from that, but that doesn't make much sense. If forces can pass through the wormhole (gravity is the big one), and fundamental particles like light, and visible objects can (people, etc), then why can't single molecules? Is there some bizarre middle range that is filtered through?

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Really? What gave you that idea? :P

(ah, pressure, yeah, that *should* be an issue. I also love how every planet seems to pretty much have Earth's gravity - including the moons)

Hm. Have we ever seen light pass through the Stargate? What always gets me is that, okay, I think the Stargate converts you to energy and then rematerializes you on the other side (how else would Teal'c be stored in a buffer in 48 hours) which means nobody is made of the same atoms they were made of before and maybe they could do something cool with planets having different isotopic abundancies...

I think it would break Jack's brain to be told he's no longer made from ANY of the atoms he used to be made from.
(though this wouldn't explain why you leave the 'gate with the same momentum at which you enter it)

Oh, hey, so the Stargate doesn't really suck things in, right? So maybe a molecule/atom has to actively pump against the event horizon with enough pressure to be pulled through - with no forces from the other side pulling? So a few air molecues would go through, but not a ton.

Of course, this does expose the gateroom to foreign contaminants (they're really remarkably unworried about that) but would keep you safe from 'gates in space.

Which doesn't explain the affect of gravity from a black hole - but isn't that the only time we see forces pass thorugh?

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

...which means nobody is made of the same atoms they were made of before...

You know, this first occurred to me during Singularity, when Sam and Daniel go through the gate hand in hand (yes, they do, Sam sort of leads him away from Jack and through the wormhole).

My very first response was to squee a bit until I gave it a moment's thought and sort of worried they'd be stuck together on the other side. Or... something, because they were touching when they went through.

It was then that I realized that people probably don't come out with exactly the same molecules they went in with. I mean, I *suppose* the 'gate could determine whose was whose by genetic marker, but why would it care?

Which led to a cracky conversation with someone, somewhere a long time go about Sam eventually gaining a penis out of her gate travel ;)

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Which led to a cracky conversation with someone, somewhere a long time go about Sam eventually gaining a penis out of her gate travel ;)

Okay, yeah, that is cracky. :) And also hilarious.

Why am I now contemplating gate travel warning labels?

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

yes, they do, Sam sort of leads him away from Jack and through the wormhole

Oh, I am VERY aware they go through hand in hand.

And I so want the crack!fic where something goes wrong and people end up stuck together!

Honestly, at an atomic/molecular level, unless they manage to track the quantum state of the electrons (which I'm not sure would be possible) there would be no way to tell whose molecule was whose. I'm actually not sure whether the 'gate converts matter-energy, transports it as energy, then converts the energy back to matter on the other side (if so, wow) or sends a stream of atoms (which seems HARD) or just sends the pattern and re-creates them on the other side with atoms from the other side (maybe the 'gate stores atoms....hmm...could we program this to re-materialize someone, say, without a tumor?)

(or maybe I'm making these too much like Star Trek transporters)

I think I read a fic somewhere where Sam *did* come back with a penis.

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Oh, the crack!fic could be epic.

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to track the quantum state of the electrons, what with the Uncertainty Principle and everything (unless we assume quantum mechanics is wrong, in which case, ow).

In 48 Hours, Teal'c was stuck in the buffer, which seemed to be some kind of crystal matrix, if I'm remembering the episode right. Which implies that it's just the pattern being sent.

I think I read a fic somewhere where Sam *did* come back with a penis.

I am clearly reading the wrong* fic.

*for "special" definitions of "wrong".

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

It could be epic. And fantastic.

unless we assume quantum mechanics is wrong, in which case, ow

I thought so too (with the impossible) and, also, OW!

Exactly about the buffer thing - which really makes the stargate a really fancy long-distance transporter rather than a wormhole, I think, maybe. Errrr

Oh, no, you're not reading the wrong fic. I remember not being very impressed by it. Though I do think it could be done *right*

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Not only would the stargate be a fancy long-distance transporter, but it's also a really fancy long-distance rotary telephone, with a different area code for another galaxy. :P

Done right, that fic could be interesting. I think.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Except in Pegasus where they have touch tone (digital dialing rather than analog) :P

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

...just sends the pattern and re-creates them on the other side with atoms from the other side...

Hmm, I've heard that theory before somewhere. Which sort of bothers me on the level of, what if their atoms or whatever were recreated on the other side of the wormhole with weird, exotic, local atoms? They'd probably more or less *look* the same, but their bodies would be fundamentally different. That makes me think. Of course they'd be re-materialized with familiar elements when they got back, but geez, it sounds really strange for when they'd be off-planet.

Along the same lines, Sam distinctly said that Teal'c's energy 'pattern' was stored in the crystals, so yeah, it lends credence to that theory.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Well, a carbon atom is a carbon atom is a carbon atom. If it had a different number of protons, it wouldn't be carbon anymore, and if had a different number of electrons it would be an ion (charged atom) and act very differently and not be used for assembling. The one thing that could really be different is the number of neutrons which would affect the mass (and is how we get isotopes) but there are pretty clear non-Earth-specific chemical and physical laws that affect which isotopes are dominant and a small change in isotopic composition shouldn't hurt a person (a newer world might have more C-14 and C-13).

I do think Jack would freak out if he knew he was made of alien atoms though :)

Though, actually, I really wonder if this could somehow have meant the radiation poisoning should have not been passed through the 'gate after Kelowna. I mean, he's not being re-assembled with the affected atoms because they wouldn't be there at SGC so...maybe Daniel should have been fine after the 'gate travel, which is extra weird to think about.

But, yeah, it's 48 Hours that makes me think matter isn't stored, which then bothers me because they're more long-range transporter than wormhole. Giant worms. Tunneling through space.

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

How does radiation poisoning work? Because if the atoms get irradiated, then maybe the 'gate tries to reassemble with the "wrong" isotopes? (If I'm remembering it correctly, when irradiated, the atom loses an alpha particle. Which I think changes the isotope, but it's been awhile since I had to pay attention to radiation.) If the 'gate is reading the irradiated atoms when it saves your state when you go through, it, theoretically, should reassemble you with the irradiated atoms. Uh, somehow.

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Hm. Have we ever seen light pass through the Stargate?

Argh, I meant "light" as in "fundamental particles". I was trying to remember quantum, because we know certain frequencies can pass freely back and forth through the gate.

Actually, yes, we have seen light pass through. I think. Anubis aimed that big-ass (it's totally a technical term) laser at the gate to keep it open, and Sam aimed a particle accelerator at it earlier.

Oh, hey, so the Stargate doesn't really suck things in, right? So maybe a molecule/atom has to actively pump against the event horizon with enough pressure to be pulled through - with no forces from the other side pulling?

Oh, so maybe it acts like a thin membrane that keeps most things out. Actually, except for temperature, that'll keep things separate enough. Oh, and temperature was explained, at least for a bit, back when everyone looked nicely frosted upon exiting a wormhole.

On the forces, yeah we see the black holes, but like you said before, momentum is conserved. Which implies other forces have to be as well.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

But was the laser going through the 'gate or lending power to the super conductor of the 'gate itself? But we did see Sam shoot particles - I'm more and more convinced that momentum vectors are at play here.
(and, hm, radio waves (at least certain frequencies) can pass both directions where matter can't. I wonder what else can go both ways?)

Acting like a thin membrane makes sense to me - calculate purposeful impact versus Brownian motion - though then more would get through on a windy day? And temperature wasn't about differences, was it? But more just a by-product of the re-animation process?

I'm kinda glad they conserve momentum :)

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

I thought it was going through the gate, but I could be wrong. In any case, I'm starting to agree with you on it being related to momentum vectors. (I am nowhere near good enough at quantum physics to figure out what else acts like radio waves, although I suspect something at the extremes of the EM spectrum. As in, it either needs to be very high frequency or very long wavelength.)

Okay, so maybe the frosted look wasn't about the temperature differences. My brain is just stuck on that track right now. Because it happened when the pressure on the other side wasn't (apparently) that different from Earth's.

I'm also glad they conserve momentum. :)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Yep - it's gotta be about momentum and total force and vectors and ...something...to do with magnets.

I kinda thought the handwave was that the frosted look (and vomiting) was because they didn't have the Earth 'gate tweaked quite right (with no DHD) and Sam didn't like throwing up or having frostbite on her nose so she fixed it (ie: it would get really old doing that EVERY episode)

Do you think their ears pop?

That should be a t-shirt or something - "I'm glad they conserve momentum" :)

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Of course. It's always magnets.

Okay, I can believe the rough ride was due to the lack of a DHD. And Sam fixing it because it was an unacceptable, uh, feature of the Earth's 'gate.

I don't know if their ears pop. Ears popping is generally due to pressure differentials. So if the pressure on the other side is the same, I don't think their ears necessarily have to pop.

I would totally buy that t-shirt.

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

Um, trying to be thinky here - waaaaay past my college years and physics wasn't my best subject anyway.

In Watergate, Sam theorized that the gate had some mechanism to keep the water from one planet (the gate was submerged) from flowing through the wormhole when the gate was open. Some level of basic resistance to matter going through. (perhaps molecule size??? no idea).

Anyway, if it can keep fluids from flooding through the gate, but not particles from a particle beam weapon, perhaps there's some minimum particle/molecule size that cannot pass through the event horizon individually.

Cripes, you actually made me think...

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Oooh, good point, we have seen canon evidence of substances not passing through with Watergate. Hmmm. Perhaps something to do with substance uniformity? Perhaps the ability to tell whether something is purposely approaching the event horizon versus the random events of molecules bumping against it in their natural motion (because if you have enough physics to make the 'gates, you have enough to detect that)

Molecule size alone wouldn't work, given that humans are mostly water....but some form of intent and ability to determine larger structure of molecules - since that would have to be observed to reconstruct the object and...now I'm thinking about quantum entanglement and how very not possible the stargate really is.

I'm actually thinking it's some form of momentum vector and determination of whether the atoms/molecules are purposely trying to go through the event horizon, which is cool.

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

I'm actually thinking it's some form of momentum vector and determination of whether the atoms/molecules are purposely trying to go through the event horizon, which is cool.

Yes, some kind of cohesion combined with *purposeful* movement, rather than random motion.

Aren't atoms held together by electrical attraction? Okay, not electricity, per se, but... (flails for the right word). Same is true of molecules, which are attracted one another by filling in the positions ions (ions? eh, maybe) leave open (kind of like arms)

So, I'm thinking maybe the gate picks up on that basic electrical cohesion of matter, distinguishing it from random... stuff.

Which also means that if something came up with the right weapon, they could disintegrate us like replicators, by counteracting the electrical bonds holding our molecules together. Which is maybe what that weapon on Dakara did.

Also, re: the Stargate 'sucking'. Remember the effect from the movie? Where people stick part of themselves in the Event Horizon and the stargate sort of 'sucks' them in from there? Yeah, they're duplicating that effect in the Ark of the Truth. Which... isn't really a spoiler of any significance, I don't think.

So much for the Stargate not sucking ;)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Well, technically the nucleus of an atom is held together by the Strong Force (which my understanding is that we don't completely understand) and electrons are mostly held to a nucleus by electromagnetic forces (positive attracted to netagive). Molecules work by sharing electrons - Oxygen tries to teal Hydrogen's electrons, but Hydrogen doesn't let go, in the process Oxygen develops a slight negative charge and Hydrogen a slight positive, and, voila, you have water.

And, yeah, if someone finds a way to break molecules down into atoms (essentially eliminate atomic bonds) will be 1) very impressed and 2) very scared. The only think with Dakara is I don't see how that would single out lifeforms - one O-H bond would look the same as another whether water molecule was in me, my cat, the river or a glacier (okay, it'll look slightly different frozen)

Huh. Because I'm pretty sure during the tv run the Stargate doesn't suck. Hmm.

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

No, I agree. I don't remember the gate ever sucking on the tv run. Just in the Russell/Spader movie. And in AoT, apparently.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I think I have an explanation/handwave for that. Sort of :) But it would involve a spoiler, so I'm going to shut up about it unless you want to hear about it. (It's really a pretty small spoiler and one you'd know about if you've watched the teasers. Which, by the way, there will be a one minute trailer during Atlantis this Friday. You'll probably see what I'm talking about then.)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Nope. I am 100% un-spoiled and since I don't get the sci-fi channel, that includes teasers. And I appreciate you helping me stay that way.

But, hm, in Fire and Water - did it suck the wreath during Daniels' funeral?

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

But, hm, in Fire and Water - did it suck the wreath during Daniels' funeral?

It did, sort of. Jack and Sam placed it on the Event Horizon and then it just sort of sank in from there after they took their hands away. But we didn't get the from-the-side POV that would show us the de-materializing aspect of things.

No problem on the spoilers. I seemed to remember that you were unspoiled.

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Hee. This was mostly my friends and I being absolute dorks in a restaurant today. :)

Hm, actually, you might be on to something with the minimum particle/molecule size thing. Liquids are more dense than gases (which are also more "dense" than energy particles). Generally, solids are more dense than liquids, and also have different molecular structures. Maybe the Stargate uses something to detect both molecular structure and density to determine in if something is going to pass through.

[beanpot.livejournal.com]

I have no earthly idea what you guys are talking about in science terms, but I do so love watching you all flesh it out.

That is all.

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Glad we're amusing. :) Sometimes, I really do like trying to explain/figure out these kinds of things.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

It's all because of magnets.

*nods knowingly and wanders back to the English majors section*

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

*smacks forehead*

Of course! Magnets!

:P